Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Sanitarium wrote:
Congratulations to you and your wife.
-Sani
Thanks , indeed I love her very much as a person and in no way I would have find a better wife than her, she is the man in the house indeed and I'm proud of her being as such, I donlt like wimpy women
Sanitarium wrote:
I think you disqualify a lot more of the ahadith than I would. But that's okay. Its your religion and not mine.
Sanitarium wrote:
I don't agree with your interpretation of 4:129; although my opinions are based on the tafseer's as they are more knowledgeable about Islam than I am.
See that is the difference between me and you and between me and many Muslims, they resort to the human words to Qualify Allah words and they end up with many contradictions between the human words and the God words but they end up choosing the human words, it just does not make any sense for me, indeed Allah never mentioned the hadith of Mohammad in the Quran, therefore we should only follow what is said about Mohammad that does not contradict the Quran
Sanitarium wrote:
Kathir shows that Allah Knows you cannot treat your wives equally (justly) in matters of love and affection;
Ibn Kathir is my favourite scholar, on the other hand that does not mean for me that he got everything right regarding his understanding to the Quran, i.e. I don't take what he says for granted, I analyse it first and compare it to the whole Quran context, if it will violates any thing then I have to dismiss it
For example , Ibn Kathir understood 2:8-20 as being the subject of the hypocrites, but if you study 2:8-20 you will see clearly that Allah is not talking about the Hypocrites rather the terrorists, hence I have to dismiss his understanding, I can elaborate and prove it to you if you wish
Now, 4:129 never said that the injustice is relating to love and affection, that is something Ibn kathir and you have added to the context, let's look at 4:129 again:
"Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire...... " [The Quran ; 4:129]
وَلَن تَسْتَطِيعُواْ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ بَيْنَ النِّسَاء وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ (129
-> See how the injustice is decribed : وَلَن تَسْتَطِيعُواْ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ بَيْنَ النِّسَاء وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ, can you notice the verb Taddilo, which looks like this in the verse : تَعْدِلُواْ and means to be fair and as you can see the verse denied that any man can be fair with the women even if it was their ardent desires, IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN
Let's look at 4:3 again and we will see the same word Taddilo,
" but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, [The Quran ; 4:3]
فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً (3).......
-> See, Allah is telling the men that if they fear not to تَعْدِلُواْTaddilo, Be fair between the wives, then : فَوَاحِدَةً, , [b]Fawahida, Only ONE
What else I can say?
Sanitarium wrote:
but if you treat them equally in other regards (that you have power over) then Allah will forgive you the favouritism you showed to one/some wives over others.
Neither 4:3 nor 4:129 said the above, it is you or whoever you are following who is suggesting the above lie, Allah said clearly in 4:129 : وَلَن تَسْتَطِيعُواْ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ بَيْنَ النِّسَاء وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ, i.e. are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire, it can never happen and therefore the advice in 4:3 should be obeyed by those who fully submitted to Allah: فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً, i.e. but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one
Sanitarium wrote:
Justice in 4:3 only regards to the Mahr and support for wives you already have (in my opinion and Bukhari hadiths).
that is in the opinion of bukhari and his hadith that you choose to follow, on the other hand the injustice mentioned in 4:3 and 4:129 is general ( تَعْدِلُواْ) and should be covering all kinds of injustice
4:127 however was very specific to marrying orphans and the injustice of not paying the mahr to them, but why bukhari and you want to apply 4:127 to 4:3, I have no idea nor there is any hint in the Quran to do so.
Sanitarium wrote:
We don't agree on these issues I know; but I can see your point of view and it is a valid interpretation (negating the hadiths).
-Sani
Thank you and as you can see you can accept mine as valid and I only used the Quran to explain it, so why you want me to consider bukhari as valid and he used some hearsay to explain it?, possibly I might add why you want to follow another human that is based on hearsay?
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed 17 Jun, 2009 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Fri 05 Jan, 2007 7:22 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Stupid anna from FFI said:
AhmedBahgat
What a lot of poppycock nonsense in that 'article', and thank God that in Christianity polygamy is forbidden - also with 'orphans'!
It has obviously not occurred to you that the 'four [orphans] wives' allowed were a handy solution by marying muslim women off who had become 'orphans' because of Muhammed's wars.
Thousands of women were enslaved by Islam and used as concubines for centuries on end by rich Sheikhs and Sultans who 'could not count'!
Ahmed said to her:
Jesus allowed polygamy in the Bible you ignornat and stupid dumb face
Abdul Malik from FFI said to Ahmed and anna:
Where does christianity forbid polygamy?
Did you even read the bible?
Look here Genesis 26:34
Quote:
34 And when Esau was forty years old he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite.
I count 2 wives here.
Genesis 28:9
Quote:
9 And Esau went unto Ishmael, and took, besides the wives that he had, Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebaioth, to be his wife.
More than 1? Don't you think.
2 Samuel 12:8
Quote:
7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 and I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added unto thee such and such things.
Hmmm...
Exodus 21:10
Quote:
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Hello All
The Bible and the Quran are full of parables, these parables are there for us to learn sometnig from, it is not like our grannies telling us some bedtime stories, each parable in the Bible and the Quran must have a lesson behind it, let's look at the following Parable from the Bible
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
(1) "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
(2) Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
(3) The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them.
(4) The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
(5) The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
(6) "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
(7) "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.
(8) The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'
(9) "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
(10) "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
(11) "Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
(12) "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
(13) "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. [Matthew 25:1-13 NIV Bible]
According to Jesus' parable, the bridegroom married 5 of the ten virgins. It seems also that Jesus in this parable allowed for all women to be naked in one room with their one husband. THIS IS VERY SICK AND REVOLTING!!! Polygamy is allowed in Islam, but it is forbidden for the man to share the room with more than one wife at a time:
We read in the hadith said about Mohamma that he said:
"A man should not see the private parts of another man, and a woman should not see the private parts of another woman, and a man should not lie with another man under one covering, and a woman should not lie with another woman under one covering. [Sahih Muslim, B003, N0667]
On the other hand Jesus in his parable clearly and irrefutably Jesus' parable allows polygamy between 1 man and 5 women!
Do I believe that Jesus peace be upon him said the above parable?, of course not, and that is one corruption in the NT
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed 17 Jun, 2009 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fri 05 Jan, 2007 7:55 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Sanitarium wrote:
Ahmed: I know I included it as an EDIT in my previous post, but could you please address the Allowance that appears after the "...Marry only one." in 4:3?
How does the allowance "or a captive in your right hand" fit with your interpretation?
Thanks
-Sani
Hello Sani
Good question, thanks for raising it, the reason I ignored it is simply, I don't want to get involved in a debate regarding the words Ma Malakatu Aymanikum, مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ, which is literally translated as :whom your right hand posses, because it is very speculative and can end up in a ping pong game of silly replies, the words in my eyes can mean a few things including the slaves anyway, so let's just take it as it means slaves only, firstly we need to define what slave means, simply it means someone who works for another, i.e. someone that is controlled by another, possibly the slave is being paid for that control or possibly the slave is being abused by that control, and there are many levels in between
Indeed most of us if not all are slaves because in addition to the fact that we need to work for our God Slaves of God (assuming God exists), yet we need to work for others to survive and make our livings, some of us has the best of slavery jobs like CEOs and other have really odd slavery jobs, some of us are abused in our slavery jobs and others are honoured in their slavery jobs, this is a fact of life. Indeed if life is not full of poor slaves then we will never find someone to clean our public toilets and many other odd jobs, whenever I see someone of those in my day to day life, I really feel for them, sort of I'm walking in the shopping centre having fun and here is a poor man or a woman going around cleaning my rubbish, you can clearly see the sadness in their eyes, I wish I can give'm what I have but in reality it just can't happen because I can't accept to be in their positions, I did many odd jobs myself years ago and it was really tearing me apart, I honestly thank Allah that my current slavery status to other humans is not very odd at all and I consider myself a very free slave to a degree because I choose when I work and what I do, but yet can't control how much I get paid, there are zillions of examples for slavery in every place in the world, many consider themselves slaves even if they work in an office and on a desk, because yet they can be abused by their supervisors as well getting paid very little money to the amount of hours they have to put every day, in these hours they can't do what they want, this is the reality of this life, and that is why Islam does not forbid slavery, it only regulated it because slavery is needed for life to go on and even after life is gone because at the end of the J day we are slaves to Allah if He exists, how Islam regulated it?, the answer can be found in the Quran with ease, firstly you have to understand that the religion stand of slavery is in the favour of the slaves not in the favour of their masters, i.e. a slave is someone whom Allah made very poor to test him/her as well test others on how they will treat those poor slaves, it is a double test in one for all of us, the slaves and the masters, I believe firmly that the masters must be questioned by Allah regarding how they treated a slave, and if they abused one, then they must pay severely for it, indeed, it may end up on the JD that the abused slave is in far better slavery status (to Allah) than the master, indeed on the JD the master may end being the clear cut abused slave, Saddam maybe a good example for us as we have watched him in this very life ending up in worse status than a slave, the noose was put on his neck while his hands and legs are cuffed and he can't do shit about it, remember he was one hell of a master one day, let's have a look at this verse:
And He it is Who has made you successors in the land and raised some of you above others by (various) grades, that He might try you by what He has given you; surely your Lord is quick to requite (evil), and He is most surely the Forgiving, the Merciful. [The Quran ; 6:165]
وَهُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَكُمْ خَلاَئِفَ الأَرْضِ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَكُمْ فَوْقَ بَعْضٍ دَرَجَاتٍ لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَا آتَاكُمْ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ سَرِيعُ الْعِقَابِ وَإِنَّهُ لَغَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (165)
-> See how clear it is : And He it is Who has made you successors in the land and raised some of you above others by (various) grades, that He might try you by what He has given you, therefore being master, a slave or any level in between is nothing but a TRY from Allah, i.e. the masters will be held responsible to what they do to the salves, because it is Allah who made them masters and made the others slaves
Let's now go back to 4:3 and we will see clearly that it is a case in the favour of the slaves and against the masters:
"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.)
[The Quran ; 4:3]
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ (3)
-> See dear Sani, the solution of marrying ONLY ONE is not a solution for the first problem of fearing not to be just to the orphans, rather it is a solution to the second problem of fearing not to be just between the multiple wives, and in that case men should marry only any free woman OR أَوْ a slave, i.e. the slave status will be raised from a slave to a proper wife who has rights according to the Quran, this is a loss to the master and a win to his slave, don't you agree dear Sani?
You have to be fully aware that marrying one free woman OR one slave is not the solution for the orphan problem any more rather to those like me who feared not to be just between multiple wives and has to marry one, that one has to be either a free woman OR a slave but not both, the word AW OR in the verse is clear, now being a slave or a free woman makes no difference after I marry her because she will a free wife who have rights as any properly married wife
This is indeed what the prophet did in many of his marriages, those POWs captured during the battles MUST BE CLASSIFIED AS SLAVES, now the prophet married a few of them and raised their status from being slaves to sort of in our present day terms FIRST LADIES, and indeed the Quran call them [/b]The mothers of all believers[/b], wouldn't that be a great honour for those slaves whom the prophet married? They even been raised to a level higher than many free women, don't you agree?
The bottom line is this, whenever the Quran told us to marry a slave, it can't be considered a case of abuse rather a case of elevating that slave to a higher level that is not slavery any more as we have seen in 4:3 and in many other verses, that level is called a properly married wife who has rights over her husband, when she was a slave however, she had no rights almost.
Now, let me go back to the subject of 4:3, as I said earlier the solution presented for the first problem of fearing not to be just to the orphans does not make any sense, because the Mahr that should be paid, has to be happily paid by the man, not paid by compulsion, and if we take the understanding of Ibn Kathir then it means the following:
1) The man wants to marry an orphaned woman who has no parents
2) Generally the parents of the bride are the ones who insist on the Mahr
3) The man sees it as a chance to dodge the Mahr so he wants to marry an orphaned woman
4) The man is confronted with 4:3and now the man is fearing to err,
5) So the man goes to marry another 4 and happily pay the Mahr to them
Holy non sense dear Sani, if you buy that then you have given me merit to accuse you of having a low IQ figure, somewhere around the 90s
I tell you what darling, if the problem to the orphaned women is motivated by fearing to pay the Mahr then here is the solution:
Bloody pay the Mahr if you want to marry a specific orphaned woman
It is not like the Mahr is paid monthly, it is a bloody ONE OFF payment, so listen carefully darling, any Muslim man wants to marry any woman, he must pay that one off payment, no solutions in here other than show me the money, indeed that is what the Quran told us exactly in 4:2 (to pay the orphans their rights in general) and in 4:127 (to pay the orphaned women their Mahr)
Here is my replies to a few paragraphs from one of your comments that I missed earlier :
Sanitarium wrote:
My understanding is that Men would marry orphans to gain control (or joinr ownership) of their wealth/possessions,
But joining wealth was warned against in 4:2, so why you want to apply on 4:3?
Sanitarium wrote:
and use that to support their other wives (up to four),
There is no evidence in the verses of such claim
Sanitarium wrote:
or were marrying orphans, so they could pay them a "less Mahr"; ie. less than they were entitled to.
That does not make any sense because the solution is not to marry another 4 where you still have to pay Mahr to them, the solution is simply to pay the Mahr (like it or not) to them not to suggest to marry another 4 and yet you still have to pay the Mahr to them, it makes no sense darling. I'm not like the boys and girls in here who insist on non sense, indeed my argument has far more sense and merit than Ibn kathir argument with my total respect to him.
Sanitarium wrote:
If the hadith are corrupt, then why would they bother to mention 4:127 in many of the same hadiths we find the explanation of 4:3? I mean why would they explain them together?
Darling if you read the 4 tafsirs Ibn Kathir, Qurtuby, Jalaleen and Tabri regarding 4:3, you will see clear contradictions between all of them, it seems they were even confused to what it means, some of them also based their conclusion on the same wring sourses,
Let me tell you darling, if the hadith is required to understand the Quran then we are in big problem because the hadith never explained every verse in the Quran I bet that it even covered 50% of the Quran therefore the hadith can't be held as a Quran qualifier, what can be held as a qualifier is the Arabic words used in the Quran, nothing more.
Sanitarium wrote:
I hope you can see why I believe in my interpretation?
Indeed I tried but your problem that you already basing your understanding on Ibn Kathir that I already see it as flawed and I believe that I proved using the Quran and the common sense that it is flawed, that does not mean that Ibn Kathir is flawed, not at all.
Sanitarium wrote:
So you acknowledge that my interpretation may be right?
I'm not going to give it a 0% possibility but if will never give it more than 1% possibility, that is based on the fact that I may never reach a level to understand Allah wisdom and at the same time my respect to Ibn Kathir makes think that 0% possibility to his understanding won't be fair so I gave him 1% due to respect but I still insist that his understanding is flawed as far as Allah is making me to see
Sanitarium wrote:
I just want to know that you can see my interpretation as being valid in light of the evidence we have.
there is no logical evidence presented neither a Quran evidence, on the other hand I presented both therefore I don't see it valid but due to my respect to Ibn Kathir I'm only giving it 1% possibility
Sanitarium wrote:
(ie. I'm not just making this up to make islam "look bad"). I am one to look at all the information,
sure, and I provided my side of information that is purely based on the Quran and the common sense
Sanitarium wrote:
whether it contradicts my own belief or not, and decide from there. You have certainly given me some things to think about though!
I hope I have added more points for you to think about
Sanitarium wrote:
Glad to hear it! I am very glad to find a muslim who (a) knows what they believe and why (b) is able to explain without having to give a url to someone's webiste or a Dr. Naik video! This is no deliberate slur on muslims at all; I find however that most of them are only used to parroting what others say, and not looking into it themselves. Not to say these other sources are wrong; I just don't see why they don't pick up a Quran themselves, you know?
Thanks and yes I know:
And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.
[The Quran ; 25:30]
وَقَالَ الرَّسُولُ يَا رَبِّ إِنَّ قَوْمِي اتَّخَذُوا هَذَا الْقُرْآنَ مَهْجُورًا (30)
-> See, the Muslims are forsaken the Quran, do you know why?, I tell you why darling, because they invented the hadith and that is what they ponder upon all their times while forsaking the Quran, if you ask me I tell you that they deserve to be misguided and they will stay misguided
Sanitarium wrote:
The solution is to marry other women (than orphans) or a Right Hand Possession.
But you still have to pay the Mahr, right?
Or in that case it going to be compulsory to pay it because of the parents?, see the solution is very flawed, it is like ok men if you are that sneaky then bloody marry another 4 and you will damn pay four Mahrs because of your in laws so you better pay one Mahr for one orphaned wife,. hahahahahaha
Sanitarium wrote:
how did they take your interpretations?
well, of course some accepted on the flay and others opposed it, they think of it as woman are created for the pleasure of men, so when a man gets sexually sick of his wife after many years of marriage they think it is their right to add more wives, others too justify it based on the unbalance between the number of men and women
I really haven't seen any explanation that satisfies me other that what I proposed, the other wives have to be mothers with orphans and the marriage has to be motivated by the care of the orphans not motivated by sleeping with their mothers however 4:3 is clear in telling us that the men should also consider liking the mothers, Of your choicepMa Tab Lakum, . i.e. there must be a bit of appeal to the mothers, it is not like I want to care for some orphans and bloody lock myself with a horrible wife who have no decency or respect to herself, the whole thing from start to finish has to be fair:
1) fair to the orphans
2) fair to the multiple wives
3) fair to the man himself
everyone should be happy.
Sanitarium wrote:
I need some time to think about it. Decisions and opinions formed hastily can come back to haunt you. I would rather take some time to think about your interpretation (if you don't mind)?
Of course you can take all the time you want, at the end of the day I don't force my understating on anyone, but I ask you if you see my understanding has a possibility even if it is 1% then please you should not use the other understanding to defame or degrade the Quran because I can assure you with all honestly that I could not flaw the Quran, but I take it as a whole, I don't cherry pick from it and I know very well how the Quran explains itself, this is years and years of attachment to that book and in no way I will deceive myself or even allow others to accuse me as such trying hard to degrade my religion, as I said before, they can conclude whatever and just live with me in peace I don't want to change them nor I want them to change me
Sanitarium wrote:
Wasn't Muslim a student of Bukhari? Or do you have issues with their validation of Hadiths (ie. contradictions to the Quran negate inclusion)?
I'm not really sure if he was but if that is the case this will make worse for me, my issue is with their validations method which is funny and unrealistic as well they contradicted each other, i.e. Bukhari accepted some whom Muslim rejected and vice versa, it just does not make any sense, but what they succeeded in doing is simply they made their names eternal which also does not make any sense to me, what I see as eternal only is the Quran and the reason for that is simply because it is the words of the eternal God
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed 17 Jun, 2009 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sat 06 Jan, 2007 12:56 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
Ok, but verse 4:127 is already telling us about those orphaned WOMEN whom we want to marry while not giving them their dowry, so why you think verse 4:127 applies to 4:3?
Why also you don't think that 4:3 is talking about marrying single mothers who have children?
cheers
fudgy wrote:
ok thnx for pointing out 4:127, see Quran explains itself.
Salam bro
Cool, so you agree that the Quran explains itself, I totally accept this notion, however not to a degree that people mix up verses recklessly and without any merit. In a way, I understood you as you are one who is suggesting that 4:127 further explains 4:3
Let me bring both verses in here and see for ourselves:
4:3 And if you fear that you cannot act justly with the orphans, then marry whoever pleased you from the women, two and three and four; but if you fear that you shall not act equitably (between them), then only one or what your oaths possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate.
4:3 وان خفتم الا تقسطوا في اليتامي فانكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء مثني وثلاث ورباع فان خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة او ما ملكت ايمانكم ذلك ادني الا تعولوا
4:127 And they ask you for a Fatwa regarding the women. Say: Allah gives you a Fatwa concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book regarding the female orphans whom you do not give what is ordained for them while you desire to marry them, and (they ask you for a Fatwa) regarding the weak from among the children. And you should deal justly with the orphans; and whatever you do of good then surely Allah of it is all-Knowing.
4:127 ويستفتونك في النساء قل الله يفتيكم فيهن وما يتلي عليكم في الكتاب في يتامي النساء اللاتي لا تؤتونهن ما كتب لهن وترغبون ان تنكحوهن والمستضعفين من الولدان وان تقوموا لليتامي بالقسط وما تفعلوا من خير فان الله كان به عليما
fudgy wrote:
I guess that too falls in the category of taking care of orphans.
I am not sure which orphans you are talking about? The orphans should mean: males, females or both, the word orphan is never exclusive for the orphaned women who reached the age of marriage
This is what you inherited from your former fathers, that verse 4:3 is exclusively talking about the ORPHANED WOMAN WHO REACHED THE AGE OF MARRIAGE, so for your former fathers to justify their wrong understanding, they use verse 4:127 as if it is an elaboration for verse 4:3. There are few problems associated with such understanding:
1) if they want to take the word Yatama (Orphans) as being about the orphaned women who reached the age of marriage, then verse 4:2 should also be talking about those orphaned women, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look:
And give the orphans their money, and do not exchange the good for the bad, and do not devour their (the orphans) money to your money; this is indeed a great sin.
4:2 واتوا اليتامي اموالهم ولا تتبدلوا الخبيث بالطيب ولا تاكلوا اموالهم الي اموالكم انه كان حوبا كبيرا
-> See how the same orphans mentioned in 4:3 are also mentioned in 4:2: And give the orphans their money , and and do not devour their (the orphans) money to your money , HOW CLEAR, obviously verse 4:2 must apply for any orphan regardless being male or female, and certainly, verse 4:2 applies to those orphans who have not reached the age of puberty (males or females) consequently, they cannot manage their own money, and consequently they needed a Trustee to manage their money for them , such Trustees may be tempted to devour the orphans money to their own money (I HAVE SEEN IT A LOT), so verse 4:2 clearly prohibits the Trustees from doing so: and do not devour their (the orphans) money to your money.
-> Now, certainly verse 4:2 is generally talking about ALL ORPHANS (MALES OR FEMALES), and certainly the same verse is talking about the same orphans who yet to reach the proper age to manage their own money. Therefore the next verse must be at least talking about the same orphans, not all of sudden we are talking about a certain type of orphans who are orphaned women as well have reached the age of marriage, as you and your former fathers try to tell us, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s walk through the verse and that should be the second argument to why verse 4:3 cannot be talking about orphaned women who reached the age of marriage, rather it is talking about the orphans in general who have not reached the age of marriage:
2)
4:3 And if you fear that you cannot act justly with the orphans, then marry whoever pleased you from the women, two and three and four; but if you fear that you shall not act equitably (between them), then only one or what your oaths possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate.
4:3 وان خفتم الا تقسطوا في اليتامي فانكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء مثني وثلاث ورباع فان خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة او ما ملكت ايمانكم ذلك ادني الا تعولوا
-> See, the start of the verse implies that we may have a problem and therefore we need a solution, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s see the problem first: And if you fear that you cannot act justly with the orphans , now the orphans mentioned in here MUST BE THE SAME ORPHANS MENTIONED in the verse before it, i.e. the orphans in general who have not reached the age of marriage, that is why Allah told us in 4:2 and do not devour their (the orphans) money to your money.
Now, if we take it wrongly as the orphaned women while the fear is, fearing to give them their dowry, then we must be dumb, let me tell you why:
Imagine I am a Trustee who have a young and orphaned woman to manage her money until she reaches the age of maturity. The woman reached maturity, and she was hot enough for me to seek her for marriage, however before I can do that, I must obey one important command, that is stated not far from 4:3, in fact it is 4:6, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look:
And test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage; and if you find in them maturity, then pay to them their money, and do not consume it extravagantly nor wastefully, lest they grow up; and whoever is rich, let him abstain, and whoever is poor, let him eat kindly; and if you have paid to them, their money, then call witnesses in their presence; and it is enough that Allah is a Reckoner.
4:6 وابتلوا اليتامي حتي اذا بلغوا النكاح فان انستم منهم رشدا فادفعوا اليهم اموالهم ولا تاكلوها اسرافا وبدارا ان يكبروا ومن كان غنيا فليستعفف ومن كان فقيرا فلياكل بالمعروف فاذا دفعتم اليهم اموالهم فاشهدوا عليهم وكفي بالله حسيبا
-> How clear, i.e. those orphans (males or females) mentioned in 4:2, as well 4:3 are the same orphans mentioned in 4:6, and in this case a Trustee must do the following when the orphans reach the age of marriage:
Test them, and if the Trustee found maturity in them, ie. (they can manage their own money), then the Trustee must: then pay to them their money, and do not consume it extravagantly nor wastefully.
Now, after I do that (as a Trustee for the orphaned girl who just reached the age of marriage and I tested her and found maturity in her, and gave her, her money), I can then think about the issue of marrying her.
Now, imagine that I am a prick and wants to rob such orphan of her money and not pay it back to her, i.e. I will think of marrying her so I combine her money to my money, or simply, not pay back her money because she will be my wife, SO WHAT THE HELL I WILL BE FEARING FROM?, it is all in my bloody plan, don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t you bloody agree?
How come I fear not to rob her of her money while at the same time, this is what I bloody want to do all along?
See pal, it makes no sense whatsoever, that is why I said we must be dumb to take it so from our former fathers,
Even under the other understanding that the fear is caused by not paying them their dowries, we still have a lot of non sense to answer
So I am a stingy guy, who wants to marry an orphaned woman, so I fool her and not pay her, her dowry, again, there is nothing that I should be fearing, again, it is all according to my plan.
The most non sense of the whole saga is the solution provided for such problem of fearing not to be just to the orphaned women, let me highlight the possibilities (again) of the cause of such fear:
1) The fear of robbing them of their money by not paying it back to them after they reached maturity and that should happen by marrying them to combinine both monies
2) The fear of not paying them their dowries because they are orphaned.
Well, if that believing man is honest in his fear and not really a jerk working according to a plan as I explained earlier, then the solution for both problems is bloody simple:
1) Problem: The fear of robbing them of their money by not paying it back to them after they reached maturity, and that should happen by marrying them and combining both monies
Solution: Pay them their money and do not combine it with your money (which was clearly stated in 4:6, here it is again) And test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage; and if you find in them maturity, then pay to them their money , as well 4:2 And give the orphans their money, �?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¦., and do not devour their (the orphans) money to your money; this is indeed a great sin., can you see that the solution in here must apply for orphans being males of females.
2) Problem: The fear of not paying them their dowries because they are orphaned.
Solution: Pay them their dowries, and that was also stated in 4:4,
4:4 And give the women their dowries as a free gift, but if they have pleased to give up to you a portion of it, then eat it with enjoyment and with praise.
4:4 واتوا النساء صدقاتهن نحلة فان طبن لكم عن شئ منه نفسا فكلوه هنيئا مريئا
-> See how clear it is as stated in verse 4:4, well, the law of giving the women their dowries is not explicit to the orphaned women, rather it applies to every woman being orphaned or not.
Now, the solution provided in 4:3 to the problem as understood by our former fathers, does not make any sense:
See , if I fear to combine the orphaned woman�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s money to my money by marrying her, despite that I might be in love with her, I must dodge her and find up to 4 other non orphaned women to marry so I don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t combine my money with the money of any one of them, WHAT THE�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¦.?
See again, if I fear to not give the orphaned woman her dowry, despite that I might be in love with her, I must dodge her and find up to 4 other non orphaned women so I give each one of them her dowry, WHAT THE �?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¦.. AGAIN?
What load of crap is that man?
Please wake up and recognise that 4:127 has nothing to do with 4:2-6, RATHER a specific incident where the people ASKED the prophet EXPLICITLY concerning the ORPHANED WOMEN, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s walk through:
4:127 And they ask you for a Fatwa regarding the women. Say: Allah gives you a Fatwa concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book regarding the female orphans whom you do not give what is ordained for them while you desire to marry them, and (they ask you for a Fatwa) regarding the weak from among the children. And you should deal justly with the orphans; and whatever you do of good then surely Allah of it is all-Knowing.
4:127 ويستفتونك في النساء قل الله يفتيكم فيهن وما يتلي عليكم في الكتاب في يتامي النساء اللاتي لا تؤتونهن ما كتب لهن وترغبون ان تنكحوهن والمستضعفين من الولدان وان تقوموا لليتامي بالقسط وما تفعلوا من خير فان الله كان به عليما
-> See, it was a question raised to the prophet, despite the laws of Allah are very clear as stated in 4:2-6, And they ask you for a Fatwa regarding the women. Say: Allah gives you a Fatwa concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book regarding the female orphans whom you do not give what is ordained for them while you desire to marry them., see how the women were explicitly flagged of being ORPHANED, and see how such problem was explicitly stated: whom you do not give what is ordained for them while you desire to marry them , and see how was the answer for such problem was to give them their money, NOT TO BLOODY MARRY ANOTHER 4, see: And you should deal justly with the orphans; and whatever you do of good then surely Allah of it is all-Knowing.
See man, if you consider that 4:3 is talking about WOMEN who are widows with children, then EVERYTHING WILL MAKE SENSE, EVEN WHY 4 AND NOT 5, 6 OR WHATEVER, WILL MAKE SENSE.
fudgy wrote:
What I am trying to get is that the whole notion seems to be something that should benefit the orphans.
That is right, NOT BENEFITTING THE HORNEY MEN, however the single mothers of those orphans should also benefit along with their children under the proper understanding of the verses.
fudgy wrote:
If it was a general thing it could have been just mentioned separately.
But the solution provided to marry another 4 non orphaned women DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, or are you telling me that it makes sense to you? If yes, then you need to explain such sense, possibly I am too dumb to get it.
fudgy wrote:
Also, Quran turns around and claims that its not that you will think your not treating your wives justly it simply is that you can't, which is evidently true. And if your wife doesn't really approve you of marrying another wife then I don't see how you can be just to that particular wife either. All in all, although marrying up to 4 wives do seems to be allowed it is restricted to the point that it's nearly impossible for you to overcome the restrictions.
These are other issues that we may discuss after we resolve the main issue: Who are the orphans and the women to marry in 4:3?
fudgy wrote:
Have a look at Khalifa's translation of 4:3, it''s kind of different than others.
Rashad Khalifah has been dismissed for life from my books, not that everything he alleged is wrong, in fact many of what he said is true, however due to the many lies he also said, all his work must be dismissed even the good one, it is the same as I treat the hadith or any allegation from any person for that matter, the same bloody criteria Bukhari himself used, that if a person talks crap (once) then that person must be dismissed regardless any right been said, I took it from Bukhari and I apply it not just upon people, rather upon any source being human or not, if it talks crap, then the whole source must be dismissed, and guess what, the man made books of Bukhari Springer hadith and its likes are full of crap, therefore the whole source MUST BE DISMISSED even if many of it is compatible with the Quran.
Status: Age: 76 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Hello, Ahmed
I have a comment to make about understanding Qur'aan.
I would not even go to Arabic here. I would like to refer to those people, who were non-Muslims but they read simple translations of qur'aan thoroughly and what did they do?
They embraced Islam.
They understood the message because they read it all.
On the other side, we have people, who read a line and start debating. I consider that silly. They do not realise that there are sections with each Surah.
Just take the example of Yusuf Islam (Cat Steven). He just read it, after his brother tossed him a copy of an English translation given by some of his friends in Morocco or some place.
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